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Discuss harry's answer to: Socrates argued reason should prevail over religion/spirituality while Christ argued the reverse. Who had the better philosophical perspective?

Who was the greater philosopher? Socrates and Christ were executed for strongly held beliefs which they refused to renounce. I think that Socrates was the better philosopher and spiritual adviser. He ...

harry Answered:

Socrates hasn't written anything. He accepted slavery, being a loyal citizen of Athens. What we know about him comes mostly from Plato. Plato used reason to justify his belief in the transcendent world of ideas and of the idea of the ideas: the beautiful, good and true One. He even invented a method to reach this highest One: the dialectic ascent. In the last analysis, any philosophy is based on beliefs. For instance atheism is based on the belief that there is no god. Atheists mostly believe in nature and in the laws of nature. That excludes freedom of choice. Thus atheism is slavery. It is not rational because it assumes that things which have no reason in themselves to exist just came into being out of the blue and from then on just keep themselves in existence. That is simply absurd.

Posted 3 years ago

A clash of ideas is not a catastrophe, it is an opportunity. Only its constructive conclusions should be allowed to leave the academic framework.

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Physicalist

Dear Harry-- I know many atheists and scientists who believe in free will even though I do not. Some actually believe there is both free will and determinism that co-exist. Atheism is hardly slavery. Slavery is a contemptible treatment of fellow humans. Perhaps you mean a deterministic perspective supports the notion that we are slaves to a nature-nurture. Slavery is a loaded word. I suggest that verbiage is important. Let's call a spade a spade and not say mere belief that there is no god (atheism) is slavery.

I did not say Christians are slaves to Christ to whom they grovel on their knees with a pitiful worship that is demeaning and devaluing to their humanity. Nor do I say that they are slaves to their fear of god and so they kiss up to Him with hope and faith in salvation. Anyway, you miss the main point if you focus on slavery as the paramount issue on this thread.

The historical record of Socrates (based on writings of Plato about 400 years before Christ) do have more info than any writing about Christ's life during His time and generation. The bigger problem is the lack of writings about Christ's life until a different generation and in a different land by people who never knew Christ. Turns out that even centuries earlier there was much more written about Socrates' life. It was also written by someone who was his pupil. There is silence from any person or witness who knew Christ. We get second hand info about only his birth and death.

My question is counting on some knowledge of both Socrates and Christ. The former is discussed in Plato's works and the latter as discussed in the Bible.

I am looking for an answer to the question rather than a criticism of me or my beliefs. If you want to ask about the universe coming into existence from nothing I will be glad to give my opinion. Perhaps you can start your own thread. I will gladly contribute.

harry

Dear Physicalist, As you very well understood, many atheists believe that nature and its laws is all there is, eliminating freedom of choice. This kind of atheism makes man a slave of the blind forces of nature. But then your statement that slavery is a conteptible treatment of fellow humans simply means that slavery is a contemptible result of the laws of nature, which does not make sense because the laws of nature are amoral. Christ is what is written about him in the New Testament. Nothing less . His spirit has inspired billions of people. In this sense he is alive on Earth. If you prefer Plato (Socrates) you are not very far from the Christian belief in the supernatural, the natural world being nothing but shadows on a wall seen by men deprived of freedom. The philosopher frees himself fom the flatlander mentality of those imprisoned in the natural world and by contemplation gets access to the world of the spirit.

Physicalist

Just because some atheists believe in determinism does not mean anything other than they have insight into cause and effect factors governing behavior. Enslavement comes from groveling before the crucifix and kissing up ritualistically. You live in lock step with the dogma from antiquity without any imagination that can take you into the modern era and culture. You are imprisoned by ancient thought of yesteryear. religoin brings about mass delusions about the supernatural because these people often have not studied the scientific explanations to achieve understanding beyond the bronze age.

Mark 'n Starla Trania

The only thing any atheist ever believed in was murdering people and spreading terror. All atheists are just plain brutal.

The lunatics who go around stumping for genocide are typical atheists who would gun you down cold in front of your kids then laugh about it if they got the chance. Then to really prove their brutality, atheists always lie about it.

We're onto you chumps.

Mark 'n Starla Trania

Harry, everywhere atheists go they re create slavery. That is when they grab you out of your home and force you to work without being paid. Stalin and his bunch of atheists did that, mining gold in Siberia. If you were a Jew or Christian, you got grabbed in the middle of the night and got to mine gold for the communist party.

Ain't that cute? Now we see Phys here stumping for just that right here and he hates you enough to lie about it.

Only worthless cowards side with communism. I hate cowards. Got that, Phys you chump?

harry

Physicalist, It is not because Socrates lived about 500 years before Christ that this makes him wrong. You could be a scientist of the 21st century and be wrong. Science tries to determine the laws that govern the physical world. It says nothing about the spirit or if you prefer, consciousness. A reductionist attitude reducing consciousness to the physical world is a belief in the absence of freedom. This goes against the fundamental religious principle that you have freedom of choice. Therefore, physicalism or any other form of idolatry of nature is an attitude that denies freedom. Alvin Plantinga calls this a cognitive malfunction.