Discuss MikeC's answer to: Best Religion

Dear Mike;

You said that Isaiah well documented the virgin birth. Which verse(s)?

Thank you and Shalom, my friend;

Yechiel

Yechiel   Isaiah   7:14,  9:5,  11:1-10, 42:1-4,  52:14-15,  53: 1-12     GBY  MikeC

Dear Mike;

I researched the information on those verses. Thank you.

יד לָכֵן יִתֵּן אֲדֹנָי הוּא, לָכֶם--אוֹת: הִנֵּה הָעַלְמָה, הָרָה וְיֹלֶדֶת בֵּן, וְקָרָאת שְׁמוֹ, עִמָּנוּ אֵל.7:14 Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. 

הָעַלְמָה = "young, sexually active woman. Isaiah used the Hebrew word for "virgin at least 46 times, which is בְּתוּלַת = b'tholah. Why would Isaiah use a word contradicting the meaning you implied, unless he wrote what he meant, and meant what he wrote?

ה כִּי-יֶלֶד יֻלַּד-לָנוּ, בֵּן נִתַּן-לָנוּ, וַתְּהִי הַמִּשְׂרָה, עַל-שִׁכְמוֹ; וַיִּקְרָא שְׁמוֹ פֶּלֶא יוֹעֵץ, אֵל גִּבּוֹר, אֲבִי-עַד, שַׂר-שָׁלוֹם. 9:5 For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;

Isaiah stated that he is telling the King what he shall experience/see/know. This was around 700 years BCE, so unless the king lived that long...

11:1-10

א וְיָצָא חֹטֶר, מִגֵּזַע יִשָׁי; וְנֵצֶר, מִשָּׁרָשָׁיו יִפְרֶה.1 And there shall come forth a shoot out of the stock of Jesse, and a twig shall grow forth out of his roots.  

ב וְנָחָה עָלָיו, רוּחַ יְהוָה--רוּחַ חָכְמָה וּבִינָה, רוּחַ עֵצָה וּגְבוּרָה, רוּחַ דַּעַת, וְיִרְאַת יְהוָה.2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD.  

ג וַהֲרִיחוֹ, בְּיִרְאַת יְהוָה; וְלֹא-לְמַרְאֵה עֵינָיו יִשְׁפּוֹט, וְלֹא-לְמִשְׁמַע אָזְנָיו יוֹכִיחַ.3 And his delight shall be in the fear of the LORD; and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither decide after the hearing of his ears;  

ד וְשָׁפַט בְּצֶדֶק דַּלִּים, וְהוֹכִיחַ בְּמִישׁוֹר לְעַנְוֵי-אָרֶץ; וְהִכָּה-אֶרֶץ בְּשֵׁבֶט פִּיו, וּבְרוּחַ שְׂפָתָיו יָמִית רָשָׁע.4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and decide with equity for the meek of the land; and he shall smite the land with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.  

ה וְהָיָה צֶדֶק, אֵזוֹר מָתְנָיו; וְהָאֱמוּנָה, אֵזוֹר חֲלָצָיו.5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.  

ו וְגָר זְאֵב עִם-כֶּבֶשׂ, וְנָמֵר עִם-גְּדִי יִרְבָּץ; וְעֵגֶל וּכְפִיר וּמְרִיא יַחְדָּו, וְנַעַר קָטֹן נֹהֵג בָּם.6 And the wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.  

ז וּפָרָה וָדֹב תִּרְעֶינָה, יַחְדָּו יִרְבְּצוּ יַלְדֵיהֶן; וְאַרְיֵה, כַּבָּקָר יֹאכַל-תֶּבֶן.7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.  

ח וְשִׁעֲשַׁע יוֹנֵק, עַל-חֻר פָּתֶן; וְעַל מְאוּרַת צִפְעוֹנִי, גָּמוּל יָדוֹ הָדָה.8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the basilisk's den.  

ט לֹא-יָרֵעוּ וְלֹא-יַשְׁחִיתוּ, בְּכָל-הַר קָדְשִׁי: כִּי-מָלְאָה הָאָרֶץ, דֵּעָה אֶת-יְהוָה, כַּמַּיִם, לַיָּם מְכַסִּים. {ס}9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. {S}  

י וְהָיָה, בַּיּוֹם הַהוּא, שֹׁרֶשׁ יִשַׁי אֲשֶׁר עֹמֵד לְנֵס עַמִּים, אֵלָיו גּוֹיִם יִדְרֹשׁוּ; וְהָיְתָה מְנֻחָתוֹ, כָּבוֹד. {פ}10 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the root of Jesse, that standeth for an ensign of the peoples, unto him shall the nations seek; and his resting-place shall be glorious. {P} 

 Abaove? When HaMoshiac arrives. Also, a reminder of our job, as part of our Covenant with HaShem. 

א הֵן עַבְדִּי אֶתְמָךְ-בּוֹ, בְּחִירִי רָצְתָה נַפְשִׁי; נָתַתִּי רוּחִי עָלָיו, מִשְׁפָּט לַגּוֹיִם יוֹצִיא.1 Behold My servant, whom I uphold; Mine elect, in whom My soul delighteth; I have put My spirit upon him, he shall make the right to go forth to the nations.  

ב לֹא יִצְעַק, וְלֹא יִשָּׂא; וְלֹא-יַשְׁמִיעַ בַּחוּץ, קוֹלוֹ.2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.  

ג קָנֶה רָצוּץ לֹא יִשְׁבּוֹר, וּפִשְׁתָּה כֵהָה לֹא יְכַבֶּנָּה; לֶאֱמֶת, יוֹצִיא מִשְׁפָּט.3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the dimly burning wick shall he not quench; he shall make the right to go forth according to the truth.  

ד לֹא יִכְהֶה וְלֹא יָרוּץ, עַד-יָשִׂים בָּאָרֶץ מִשְׁפָּט; וּלְתוֹרָתוֹ, אִיִּים יְיַחֵלוּ. {פ}4 He shall not fail nor be crushed, till he have set the right in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his teaching. {P 

The above is well taken as a prediction of what we shall accomplish when His HaMoshic does arrive. Also, the rebirth of the Kingdom after our exile-then.

52:יד כַּאֲשֶׁר שָׁמְמוּ עָלֶיךָ רַבִּים, כֵּן-מִשְׁחַת מֵאִישׁ מַרְאֵהוּ; וְתֹאֲרוֹ, מִבְּנֵי אָדָם. 14 According as many were appalled at thee--so marred was his visage unlike that of a man, and his form unlike that of the sons of men-- טו כֵּן יַזֶּה גּוֹיִם רַבִּים, עָלָיו יִקְפְּצוּ מְלָכִים פִּיהֶם: כִּי אֲשֶׁר לֹא-סֻפַּר לָהֶם, רָאוּ, וַאֲשֶׁר לֹא-שָׁמְעוּ, הִתְבּוֹנָנוּ. {ס} 15 So shall he startle many nations, kings shall shut their mouths because of him; for that which had not been told them shall they see, and that which they had not heard shall they perceive. {S}

Well! Judea resurrected! This was a seldom experienced event. In metaphore, a nation is often called a person; as "sons of Judah (the kingdom).

א מִי הֶאֱמִין, לִשְׁמֻעָתֵנוּ; וּזְרוֹעַ יְהוָה, עַל-מִי נִגְלָתָה.1 'Who would have believed our report? And to whom hath the arm of the LORD been revealed?  

ב וַיַּעַל כַּיּוֹנֵק לְפָנָיו, וְכַשֹּׁרֶשׁ מֵאֶרֶץ צִיָּה--לֹא-תֹאַר לוֹ, וְלֹא הָדָר; וְנִרְאֵהוּ וְלֹא-מַרְאֶה, וְנֶחְמְדֵהוּ.2 For he shot up right forth as a sapling, and as a root out of a dry ground; he had no form nor comeliness, that we should look upon him, nor beauty that we should delight in him.  

ג נִבְזֶה וַחֲדַל אִישִׁים, אִישׁ מַכְאֹבוֹת וִידוּעַ חֹלִי; וּכְמַסְתֵּר פָּנִים מִמֶּנּוּ, נִבְזֶה וְלֹא חֲשַׁבְנֻהוּ.3 He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one from whom men hide their face: he was despised, and we esteemed him not.  

ד אָכֵן חֳלָיֵנוּ הוּא נָשָׂא, וּמַכְאֹבֵינוּ סְבָלָם; וַאֲנַחְנוּ חֲשַׁבְנֻהוּ, נָגוּעַ מֻכֵּה אֱלֹהִים וּמְעֻנֶּה.4 Surely our diseases he did bear, and our pains he carried; whereas we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.  

ה וְהוּא מְחֹלָל מִפְּשָׁעֵנוּ, מְדֻכָּא מֵעֲו?ֹנֹתֵינוּ; מוּסַר שְׁלוֹמֵנוּ עָלָיו, וּבַחֲבֻרָתוֹ נִרְפָּא-לָנוּ.5 But he was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed.  

ו כֻּלָּנוּ כַּצֹּאן תָּעִינוּ, אִישׁ לְדַרְכּוֹ פָּנִינוּ; וַיהוָה הִפְגִּיעַ בּוֹ, אֵת עֲו?ֹן כֻּלָּנוּ.6 All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath made to light on him the iniquity of us all.  

ז נִגַּשׂ וְהוּא נַעֲנֶה, וְלֹא יִפְתַּח-פִּיו, כַּשֶּׂה לַטֶּבַח יוּבָל, וּכְרָחֵל לִפְנֵי גֹזְזֶיהָ נֶאֱלָמָה; וְלֹא יִפְתַּח, פִּיו.7 He was oppressed, though he humbled himself and opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before her shearers is dumb; yea, he opened not his mouth.  

ח מֵעֹצֶר וּמִמִּשְׁפָּט לֻקָּח, וְאֶת-דּוֹרוֹ מִי יְשׂוֹחֵחַ: כִּי נִגְזַר מֵאֶרֶץ חַיִּים, מִפֶּשַׁע עַמִּי נֶגַע לָמוֹ.8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away, and with his generation who did reason? for he was cut off out of the land of the living, for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due.  

ט וַיִּתֵּן אֶת-רְשָׁעִים קִבְרוֹ, וְאֶת-עָשִׁיר בְּמֹתָיו; עַל לֹא-חָמָס עָשָׂה, וְלֹא מִרְמָה בְּפִיו.9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich his tomb; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.'  

י וַיהוָה חָפֵץ דַּכְּאוֹ, הֶחֱלִי--אִם-תָּשִׂים אָשָׁם נַפְשׁוֹ, יִרְאֶה זֶרַע יַאֲרִיךְ יָמִים; וְחֵפֶץ יְהוָה, בְּיָדוֹ יִצְלָח.10 Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his hand:  

יא מֵעֲמַל נַפְשׁוֹ, יִרְאֶה יִשְׂבָּע--בְּדַעְתּוֹ יַצְדִּיק צַדִּיק עַבְדִּי, לָרַבִּים; וַעֲו?ֹנֹתָם, הוּא יִסְבֹּל.11 Of the travail of his soul he shall see to the full, even My servant, who by his knowledge did justify the Righteous One to the many, and their iniquities he did bear. 

יב לָכֵן אֲחַלֶּק-לוֹ בָרַבִּים, וְאֶת-עֲצוּמִים יְחַלֵּק שָׁלָל, תַּחַת אֲשֶׁר הֶעֱרָה לַמָּוֶת נַפְשׁוֹ, וְאֶת-פֹּשְׁעִים נִמְנָה; וְהוּא חֵטְא-53:רַבִּים נָשָׂא, וְלַפֹּשְׁעִים יַפְגִּיעַ. {פ} 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty; because he bared his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. {P} 

Mike; 1-11 is exile and return. Not all Judeans were quilty of what sent us into exile, but they stayed true to HaShem.

#12; our reward.

Now, how do you find a mention in these verses of a particular time, as Christianity defines it? Saying you have to have the "Holy Spirit" in to you to understand does not satisfy the absence of factual information, only that your church fathers choose to make these interpretations. Much of this, I have learned from Christian sites and books, came from the Greek Septuagint. Maybe, but there is one other item not mentioned; Church Father Marcion-I think it is spelled correctly-had a version of the Greek Bible made, with the corrections they needed. If this is the version they used, then it was not the Septuagint, but another book they used, and is used today.

Also; a final word for this post;

Isaiah 2:1-4

א  הַדָּבָר אֲשֶׁר חָזָה, יְשַׁעְיָהוּ בֶּן-אָמוֹץ, עַל-יְהוּדָה, וִירוּשָׁלִָם.  1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.  

ב  וְהָיָה בְּאַחֲרִית הַיָּמִים, נָכוֹן יִהְיֶה הַר בֵּית-יְהוָה בְּרֹאשׁ הֶהָרִים, וְנִשָּׂא, מִגְּבָעוֹת; וְנָהֲרוּ אֵלָיו, כָּל-הַגּוֹיִם.  2 And it shall come to pass in the end of days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established as the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.  

ג  וְהָלְכוּ עַמִּים רַבִּים, וְאָמְרוּ לְכוּ וְנַעֲלֶה אֶל-הַר-יְהוָה אֶל-בֵּית אֱלֹהֵי יַעֲקֹב, וְיֹרֵנוּ מִדְּרָכָיו, וְנֵלְכָה בְּאֹרְחֹתָיו:  כִּי מִצִּיּוֹן תֵּצֵא תוֹרָה, וּדְבַר-יְהוָה מִירוּשָׁלִָם.  3 And many peoples shall go and say: 'Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths.' For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.  

ד  וְשָׁפַט בֵּין הַגּוֹיִם, וְהוֹכִיחַ לְעַמִּים רַבִּים; וְכִתְּתוּ חַרְבוֹתָם לְאִתִּים, וַחֲנִיתוֹתֵיהֶם לְמַזְמֵרוֹת--לֹא-יִשָּׂא גוֹי אֶל-גּוֹי חֶרֶב, וְלֹא-יִלְמְדוּ עוֹד מִלְחָמָה.  {פ}  4 And He shall judge between the nations, and shall decide for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. {P}

These last verses are taken as what HaMoshiac shall accomplish when he arrives.

Salom;

Yechiel

Yechiel Let’s go one at a time. A woman that is sexually active. Mary was young and also a human with emotions, passion and desires. That is sexually active of mind. But being Jewish she also had her obligations, her realities, her standards and her beliefs. She prioritized correctly as a young woman and waited for the right man. She married as is the custom and she held up her obligations not only to the Jewish community but to God. Isaiah said, "

woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." While you are still waiting for Immanuel, I believe he has already come. " I believe the prophecies by Isaiah has been fulfilled . No disrespect, but you only hope for things to come. I, on the other hand, believe it has been proven who Christ is and was. No one, but no one has had such an impact on man as Christ, Not Hitler, not any of the Caesars, not the kings or queens of Europe. No one since the beginning of time on earth has had such an impact on people. I repeat, NO ONE !

Hind sight is 20/20. The facts of who he was backs me up. As of this point, all you have is hope. (PS, I do respect that! )

Dear Mike;

This 12 year old girl (average age of marriage back then, for the "right" reasons in most cultures) was an 'alma, yes, but as for her virginity? Why not? I can agree on this; as i researched you response, I thought of all the virgins who conceived on their first date.

Maybe this is what could have been meant, as being Jewish, the idea of a god making a human woman pregnant was antithema to them. Why; because this is what the Pagans did, and we are forbidden to emulate or immatate them. As for the erst-where can we find a time veriance that would agree with your faith's interprtation iin what is written? The closest we come to is in the lifetime of King Ahab, or the end of times.

Anyway, there are still the rtaif items no interpretation of what is written in the original Hebrew can get us past the prohibitions, and the non-existance of certain items.

For more info, simpletoremember.com or org, aish.com and other links that will bring you to sites where Jewish and Christian persons communicate.

After all, Mike, I am in commuication mode; are you?

Yechiel really ? Virgins on the first date ? Are you Kidding me ? That is just a stones throw away from death ! Time and place, remember ?

Dear Mike;

First of all, I am referring to todays dilemma many young  girls face. If you are as empathetic as I think you are, you can imagine how, if you were a girl, you would feel if seduced, and became pregnant.

It has happened since the beginning of our species.

What about Miriam? She got away without being harassed. The Gospels recorded Joseph's response, as you know. I am sure that there were many more in the Kingdom times; the Sacred Virgins for example? We were not always a good example, why we got exiled and when the majority returned to the Way He wants us to be, as per His Torah, we returned to His Land.

Why we cannot even experiment with another religion, as say your faith. "I am a Jealous G-d..."

As you try to think of a way to counter what I said, remember-it is not me, Mike; no, no, no-it is not me who Authored this. He did, and those of us who have any sense obey Him. I know-it is only salvation we are talking about, but you know what? If you are responsible for having a Jew, in any way, leave Judaism and convert to Christianity, you also canceled your salvation. "Those who Bless you, I shall bless; he who curse you, I shall curse." So be careful "how you share your faith" Mike, so you do not cross the line. As for me? Because He is my G-d, I shall walk the line.

Shalom;

Yechiel

Yechiel--Did you see there is a new book coming out, Did Moses Exist? 

Turns out that the early review is that Moses was an Israelite myth. I am not surprised. Are you? There were like of story tellers among the Jews that even explain the tales of Jesus etc. These characters are actually beginning to make it into the modern mythology books. I own one. 

Yechiel Boy !    What a dumb comment about conversion. I don’t even think in those terms. I say what is on my mind and if what I say makes sense to someone and they convert to Christianity, it is by there choice. God did say, " "Those who Bless you, I shall bless; he who curse you, I shall curse." Saying what we believe is what this post is all about. In that line of thought, this is not cursing anyone, just the opposite. Just by how you made that quote, tells me you are afraid that someone might just make sense to a Jew and convert him/her over. I don’t fear that or what you believe to be true about the curse of God.. I am strong in who I am and what I believe.

Curse ? I have never cursed the Jewish faith, I respect it's principles the same as I would a Buddhist, Muslims, Hindu, no more, no less etc.       GBY  MikeC

Dear Mike;

Not a dumb comment, an observation from what He told us, from Abram to Malachi. It is the inability you have to accept or understand that we are of two different theologies that has not been seen in competent light, as many Christians have shown us. As that young man who was so unaccepting that his way cannot be my way, that even after I showed him what is written in the Tanach, he stumped out of the room stating; "Well, it should not have been written that way," or that minister in Chattanooga, who was very upset that I responded to his pressure on me with the Gospels, which proved my point of view.

Here, I have been told that I shall be thrown into a mythical lake of fire, if I do not accept Jesus, and other similar comments and threats. You have read them, Mike. Judaism is not only an old, established faith even when Hinduism was still developing, but the only one which can claim G-d spoke to the whole nation. So for others to try and tell us to accept their views is to reject what G-d said. By their thinking and words, if I follow Him, I am doomed.

There are many Jews (born of a Jewish mother) who are ignorant of our faith, and millions of dollars are spent each year to convert them to the evangelist's faith. So I did not post to be mean to you, but to share where the issues are for those, like you, do not understand what is involved. That money could be better spent in helping people to live a better life, their way. As He told us; "Raise thy son in the way he shall go, and when grown, he shall not depart from his way."

On the other hand, each year 10 thousand Christians have come to Judaism, and thousands more to Noahide, and we do not evangilize!

You do to a certain extent, but you have shown positive change in accepting G-d as Infinite, and as such, it is foolishness for us to even try to say what He is; only to know what He told us and do the best we can to follow Him. 

Mike, there is nothing "dumb" about that.

Shalom;

Yechiel