Discuss jameslee102447's answer to: Best Religion

 There is only ONE HOPE for Jew and Gentile (Eph 4:4); One FOLD of Jew and Gentile (John 10:16);  One CHURCH (Acts 2:47, 16:18); One BODY (Rom 12:5; 1Cor 12:12-13); One FAMILY in heaven and earth (Eph 3:14-15), One LORD (Eph 4:5);  One FAITH (Eph 4:5); One BAPTISM (Eph 4:5); and One INHERITANCE FOR BOTH JEW AND GENTILE (Acts 26:18; Eph 1:11, 5:5; Gal 3:18).

All Gentiles who are adopted (Rom 8:15; Eph 1:5), into the Israel of God under the Throne of Jesus, heir of David, by faith in the adoption process in Acts 2:38 and who continue in the Apostles' doctrine, are made REAL and legitimate members of the tribe of Judah in the one household of Jesus Messieh (Eph 2:19).  Now, in the Israel of God, these are no longer *strangers* and *aliens* from the commonwealth of the true Israel over which the Throne of Jesus rules and reigns (Eph 2:12-13) ...(apostate Israel is not the commonwealth of Israel Paul speaks of here).

Because of false doctrine spread by Jews and Christians who know not the truth, many honest hearted who come into the Body of Christ, the Israel of God, are deceived that they have no part with the true commonwealth of Israel over which Jesus rules and reigns, but that they have come into a Gentile Church.  Yet, the fact is, that those who are NOT IN THE BODY OF Messieh are not the Israel of God.  Jesus spoke to the unbelieving Jews in Mark 16:16 and made it plain that having Jewish flesh and blood (John 1:12-13), was not automatic salvation (unconditional eternal security in Abraham), nor was it considered some great value to God, as if he needed circumcised males and Jewish flesh and blood to establish, approve, or sanction his Kingdom on earth (Mat 3:9).  The message of Jesus Messieh was GRACE not RACE (John 1:16-17).

For anyone to teach that the Church is Gentile, is surely taking away from Jesus his honor of being the Messieh, the Lord, and Messieh over many thousands of Jews that did believe and were the firstfruits of the Kingdom.  These accept the right and dignity of the throne of David in Jesus.  To teach Jewish postponement eschatology that the Kingdom does not come until the Millennial, is to deny that Jesus is presently Lord and Messieh over the Church, the New Testament Israel of God. Those who know the blessed revelation of Jesus Messieh will lift their heads high and confess to all unbelievers:  OF THE INCREASE OF HIS GOVERNMENT (KINGDOM) THERE SHALL BE NO END (Dan 9:7)!

Some will assuredly puff up and scream:  "Yeah!  Alright! You want all the blessings of the Jews, but you don't want any of their curses".  I would respond:  The curses upon any Jew happens because they choose to be apostates and have broken the Sinai Covenant.  They also reject Jesus as Messieh and his bringing the New Covenant (New Torah).  So hear me and report it straight:  Any Messianic who becomes an *apostate* (not just someone who fails for a season), after tasting of the grace and salvation of God as set forth for the obedience of faith in Acts 2:38 (see also Rom 16:26; Heb 6:4), will receive the same judgment and damnation as all unbelieving Jews.  But those Messianic Belivers who do not apostate, these are the beneficiaries of *all* the blessings and promises of God.  There is one eternal punishment that awaits all those who were unbelievers in their generations from Adam until the second coming of Messieh.  Being damned is not an exclusive punishment to unbelieving Jews only.  It awaits all those who live ungodly and who rejected either the types that point to, or the fulness of the Messianic Hope and revelation in Jesus.

Dear Earnheart;

It started out the way you described. Then, the original followers of Jesus, mostly Jewish at first, were wiped out.

The renewed Christian Church under Augustus of Hippo, among others, introduced innovations. Many of them are still in the Protestant branch of Christianity, in part or whole.

Bottom line, we are two different religions, as say Christianity from Hinduism. Jews abide by His word as we read it in the Tanach, and our faith is descended from Sinai; Christianity is as taught in the Gospels, and yours' is from Golgotha.

We do met on certain levels, when we remember not to act like children. Just remember, we look into the Torah for what we do, and the Moshiac is as the Tanach describes. You look into the Gospels for what you do, and I read where many of your co-religious reject the Tanach.

Shalom;

Yechiel

 I could go back to the beginning of the world and trace our common ancestry from Adam and Eve, later from Shem, Enoch, Kenan, Mahalalel, Jared, Enoch, Methuselah, Lamech; for all of these are our ancestors just as well as the Jews', and we share equally in the honor, nobility, and fame of descent from them as do the Jews. We are their flesh and blood just the same as Abraham and all his seed are. For we were in the loins of the same holy fathers in the same measure as they were, and there is no difference whatsover with regard to birth or flesh and blood, as reason must tell us. Therefore the blind Jews are truly stupid fools, much more absurd than the Gentiles, to boast so before God of their physical birth, though they are by reason of it no better than the Gentiles, since we both partake of one birth, one flesh and blood, from the very first, best, and holiest ancestors. Neither one can reproach or upbraid the other about some peculiarity without implicating himself at the same time.

But let us move on. David lumps us an together nicely and convincingly when he declares in Psalm 51:5: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. Now go, whether you are Jew or Gentile, born of Adam or Abraham, of Enoch or David, and boast before God of your fine nobility, of your exalted lineage, your ancient ancestry! Here you learn that we all are conceived and born in sin, by father and mother, and no human being is excluded.

But what does it mean to be born in sin other than to be born under God's wrath and condemnation, so that by nature or birth we are unable to be God's people or children, and our birth, glory, and nobility, our honor and praise denote nothing more and can denote nothing else than that, in default of anything to our credit other than our physical birth, we are condemned sinners, enemies of God, and in his disfavor? There, Jew, you have your boast, and we Gentiles have ours together with you, as well as you with us. Now go ahead and pray that God might respect your nobility, your race, your flesh and blood.

Dear Reader;

Here is something on the subjects of Israel, torah and Sin. May be helpful.

>>> http://www.yashanet.com/library/law_1.htm<<< 

Shalom;

Yechiel

 No one can take away from them their pride concerning their blood and their descent from Israel. In the Old Testament they lost many a battle in wars over this matter, though no Jew understands this. All the prophets censured them for it, for it betrays an arrogant, carnal presumption devoid of spirit and of faith. They were also slain and persecuted for this reason. St. John the Baptist took them to task severely because of it, saying, "Do not presume to say to yourselves, "We have Abraham for our father'; for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham" [Matt. 3:9]. He did not call them Abraham's children but a "brood of vipers" [Matt. 3:7]. Oh, that was too insulting for the noble blood and race of Israel, and they declared, "He has a demon" [Matt. 11:18] Our Lord also calls them a "brood of vipers"; furthermore, in John' 3:39 he states: "If you were Abraham's children would do what Abraham did.... You are of your father the devil." It was intolerable to them to hear that they were not Abraham's but the devil's children, nor can they bear to hear this today. If they should surrender this boast and argument, their whole system which is built on it would topple and change.

I hold that if their Messiah, for whom they hope, should come and do away with their boast and its basis they would crucify and blaspheme him seven times worse than they did our Messiah; and they would also say that he was not the true Messiah, but a deceiving devil. For they have portrayed their Messiah to themselves as one who would strengthen and increase such carnal and arrogant error regarding nobility of blood and lineage. That is the same as saying that he should assist them in blaspheming God and in viewing his creatures with disdain, including the women, who are also human beings and the image of God as well as we; more over, they are our own flesh and blood, such as mother, sister, daughter, housewives, etc. For in accordance with the aforementioned threefold song of praise, they do not hold Sarah (as a woman) to be as noble as Abraham (as a man). Perhaps they wish to honor themselves for being born half noble, of a noble father, and half ignoble, of an ignoble mother.

Dear Friends;

I learned something interesting tonight.

As you know, we are the only people whom, I thought, had the claim that G-d came to our whole nation and spoke to us. In a You Tube vid on Judaism, by Rabbi Kennelman,I think it is, he found out that the Hari Krishna also have this claim.

He was talking about how a culture finds out about a revelation. All others have had a person meet the divinity, or its representative, and then he relates it to others. Sinai was different; we all met G-d and heard Him.

At the Battle of  bagudagita, their main god came down to then and talked to them. They all died! So we are still the only ones whom He spoke to and survived.

Here we see they are very conceited because God spoke with them and issued them the law of Moses on Mount Sinai. Here we arrive at the right spot, here God really has to let himself be tortured, here he must listen as they tire him with their songs and praises because he hallowed them with his holy law, set them apart from other nations, and led them out of Egypt. Here we poor Goyim are really despised, and are mere ciphers compared to the holy, chosen, noble, and highly exalted people which is in possession of God's word! They state, as I myself heard: "Indeed, what do you have to say to this — that God himself spoke with us on Mount Sinai and that he did this with no other people?" We have nothing with which to refute that, for we cannot deny them this glory. The books of Moses are ready to give proof of it, and David, too, testifies to it, saying in Psalm 147:19: "He declares his word to Jacob, his statutes and ordinances to Israel. He has not dealt thus with any other nation; they do not know his ordinances." And in Psalm 103:7: "He made known his ways to Moses, his acts to the people of Israel."

They relate that the chiefs of the people wore wreaths at Mount Sinai at that time as a symbol that they had contracted a marriage with God through the law, that they had become his bride, and that the two had wedded one another. Later we read in all the prophets how God appears and talks with the children of Israel as a husband with his wife. From this also sprang the peculiar worship of Baal; for "Baal" denotes a man of the house or a master of the house, "Beulah" denotes a housewife. The latter also has taken a German form, as when we say "My dear *Buhle*" [sweetheart], and "I must have a *Buhle.*" Formerly this was an inoffensive term, designating a young lass. It was said that a young man courted [*buhlte*] a young girl with a view to marriage. Now the word has assumed a different connotation.

Now we challenge you, Isaiah, Jeremiah, and all the prophets, and whoever will, to come and to be bold enough to say that such a noble nation with whom God himself converses and with whom he himself enters into marriage through the law, and to whom he joins himself as to a bride, is not God's people. Anyone doing that, I know, would make himself ridiculous and come to grief. In default of any other weapons, they would tear and bite him to pieces with their teeth for trying to dispossess them of such glory, praise, and honor. One can neither express nor understand the obstinate, unbridled, incorrigible arrogance of this people, springing from this advantage — that God himself spoke to them. No prophet has ever been able to raise his voice in protest or stand up against them, not even Moses. For in Numbers 16, Korah arose and asserted that they were all holy people of God, and asked why Moses alone should rule and teach. Since that time, the majority of them have been genuine Korahites; there have been very few true Israelites. For just as Korah persecuted Moses, they have never subsequently left a prophet alive or unpersecuted, much less have they obeyed him.

Yechielshlipshon Thinks this answer is Helpful:
Dear AC;
You avoid the truth, and call your lies truth.
HaShem shall have His way to deal with you and your kind.
You have been shown wrong many times, and you remain blind to G-d's way.
As it is, if it was not for the Jews of the first century, there would not have been any Christianity. If it was not for the greed of people like you, in the 3rd and 4th centuries, and after, we would not have had the trouble you and your kind promote. I have no respect for you, who clings to evil.
Yechiel






Just As Jeremiah took them to task, in chapter 4:4: in his day you can see from the above post and many others this is how it is today with them when Anonymous or anyone else takes them to task today.

This is how it would have sounded if Jeremiah were alive today taking them to task posting under Anonymous.They do the same today to Anonymous or anyone else who takes them to task,

Anonymous,  you wretched heretic, you seducer and false prophet, how dare you tell that holy, circumcised people of God to circumcise themselves to the Lord? Do you mean to imply that they were hitherto circumcised physically to the devil, as if God did not esteem their holy, physical circumcision? And are you furthermore threatening them with God's wrath, as an eternal fire, if they do not circumcise their hearts?

" Well, well, my dear Anonymous, you are surely dealing roughly and inconsiderately with the noble, chosen, holy, circumcised people of God. Do you mean to say that such a holy nation has uncircumcised ears? And, what is far worse, that they are unable to hear? Is that not tantamount to saying that they are not God's people? For he who cannot hear or bear to hear God's word is not of God's people. And if they are not God's people, then they are the devil's people; and then neither circumcising nor skinning nor scraping will avail. For God's sake, Jeremiah, stop talking like that! How can you despise and condemn holy circumcision so horribly that you separate the chosen, circumcised, holy people from God and consign them to the devil as banished and damned? Do they not praise God for having set them apart through circumcision both from the devil and from all the other nations and for making them a holy and peculiar people?

Dear Friends;

AC is correct in the verse he quoted (verse 7, in the Hebrew) but he omitted the important part; David was repenting of his sins, and stating that he would not transgress again. He also pleaded with G-d to not look upon his sins (for which he repented) but to see him as one who is repented and to look upon him as such. It is for his sincere repentance-return is the correct translation of the Hebrew-that G-d looked favorably on him. So it is, according to what G-d said, that "You turn to Me, and I shall turn to you".

The other negative comments AC stated? Again, you can lay them, in the Gospels, to politics. Most of these comments could have been changed or added after the first century.

If AC was correct, then the positive progress we enjoyed over the centuries could not have happened.

As for the Devil? Not something we accept in Judaism. This is an invention from outside of our faith, thus adding evidence that these verses were re-done or added.

Shalom;

Yechiel

Although we perhaps labor in vain on the Jews for I said before that I don't want to dispute with them we nonetheless want to discuss their senseless folly among ourselves,Their unbelief does not harm us; but as to the help they derive and to date have derived from it, they may ask of their long-enduring exile. That will, in deed, supply the answer for us. Let him who will not follow lag behind. They act as though they were of great importance to us. Just to vex us, they corrupt the sayings of Scripture. We do not at all desire or require their conversion for any advantage, usefulness, or help accruing to us therefrom. All that we do in this regard is prompted rather by a concern for their welfare. If they do not want it, they can disregard it; we are excused and can easily dispense with them, together with all that they are, have, and can do for salvation. We have a better knowledge of Scripture, thanks be to God; this we are certain of, and all the devils shall never deprive us of it, much less the Jews.