Discuss Bonestructure's answer to: Best Religion

Bonestructure Answered:

Just my opinion but, for me, grace is not something you think about, not something you do, or act, or achieve. Grace happens. You have it or you don't. If your mind and heart are right, you will have grace. You won't have to search for it, it's inside you waiting to grow.
*******************************
 
FR: Hmmm.. sounds like more of an actual Understanding than JUST an "opinion" ; )
............................
I pretty much agree with what you say above Bones. ( Good to 'see' you btw ... your bi-line always makes me laugh... what a great visual <g> )
The idea of seeking Grace ... which ironically exists right within us... is more of a practice for the mind which has yet to have this Realization. Eventually we do come to understand that ~ The one who is seeking is The ONE being sought. ~ but this fact is not immediately apparent.
In fact.... that statement used to drive me crazy... until one day it was like Ohhhh right. Daaahhh. It was not a 'reasoning" of the mind but a revelation of my very BEing. That revelation needed a catalyst though and that catalyst was The Grace Bestowing (Awakening) Master.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
 
There is a great story about what you posted above , which addresses the extremely subtle ways of 'The Master'.
There was this great non-dual mystic named Kabir who lived in Banares India.... who made His humble living as a weaver. People heard that He had great spiritual wisdom.. AND also had the ability to impart that divine wisdom to others.. directly, and so often came to sit and learn from Him as He wove.
................................................
One day a visiting seeker asked... Please explain Truth to me. Kabir said nothing but continued to weave. The man asked again... and again his question was met with silence. Finally ... Kabir dropped his shuttlecock on the floor. ........................
Now.. it was a brightly lit room with many windows and the sun was streaming in. In spite of this Kabir turned to His disciple and instructed him to bring Him a lit candle... so that He could find the dropped shuttlecock.............. immediately the disciple complied. .................
This confused the new seeker no end so he pointed out the obvious... that the candle was not necessary since it was broad daylight and one could see clearly. .... Exactly Exactly replied Kabir. Truth too is SELF Evident... we need not look for it because it is all around us, right within us.. IS US. Rather it is a matter of OPENING one's eyes and seeing THAT which IS and IS Not. We must RECOGNIZE our own True Nature.
Then Kabir pointed out that of course His disciple understood the obvious also, BUT did not try to second guess The Master... but simply did what The Master requested... without hesitation. THAT is true surrender... NOT to some "other" individual.. which is NEVER a good idea... but to THAT Power which he recognized to exist WITHIN The Grace Bestowing Master. And that is the difference between blind faith and real faith. ............................
Because the disciple was ABLE to recognize the True Master within... he was able to trust Kabir implicitly. The Master MUST prove themselves to the disciple AND vice versa..... the Master / Disciple relationship is quite mystical and is based on actual inner recognition that they are in fact ONE and the same. Without this recognition it remains only a "mind" thing and Enlightenment will remain only a mental construct.
.................................................................
It is essential to recognize 'The Master'... as One's own True Indwelling SELF and it is Grace that makes this recognition possible. An actual alchemy takes place so that the student before Grace Initiation and after initiation is changed... forever. The veil of ignorance which has contracted one's Consciousness/Awareness is ripped away so that one can finally see clearly.
......................................................
It is true that drugs can break down many of the mind's barriers.... and often too fast and too soon, before we are ready to cope ... but the last wall of the mind can ONLY be shattered by the Grace Bestowing Master... and in that instant the actual reality of ~ I AM ~ is Realized.
......................................................
One is either moved to seek Enlightenment / Truth Absolute or... they are not. Even to seek Grace takes Grace. You can't buy Grace, you can't Earn Grace... it is a true gift.... still, a loving and compassionate "Heart" has a better chance of attracting and HOLDING that Grace once it strikes.
So, the True Master... the LIT Candle ... has the power to Awaken our own dormant Divine Inner Energy... to OPEN our eyes and Awaken us from the long sleep of duality. .................................
Until one is absolutely sure.. by the gift of Grace... that the Master is True they should continue to test the Master until ALL doubt is removed.
For me personally dualistic religion is like a restaurant with a fancy menu. Their waiters may TELL you all about the "Food", their menu may even have all these pretty pictures of the "Food"... BUT... there is no actual "Food" in the Kitchen.... they cannot deliver the goods, and you remain hungry. They will tell you that IF you're really good, and IF you become WORTHY of the "Food"... somewhere down the road... you may get this or that entree.
.............................................................
But the True Master is not like that. They don't just talk about the "Food"... they are a real chef, and they bring you into the Kitchen and allow you to EAT.... because you have always been worthy and there is no need to WAIT... because "God" exists within and as ALL TIme.. and the "kingdom" is Right HERE and Right NOW.... for those who have the Grace to recognize it.
Bottom line... no one ever BECOMES "God"... but rather Realizes THAT which they have always been.
Gold may be given the FORM of a Goblet... but regardless of the FORM it takes will always remain GOLD. We are like that. "God" / Infinite Consciousness creates out of ITs own SELF... and takes on all these forms... that are not different from The ONE. It is only the 'false' ego that veils the obvious from us... and only "Grace" which reveals that unchanging Truth. 
We play a cosmic game of Hide and Seek... with our own SELF.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
 

Dear Faith;

I have to agree with the story about Kabir. Abraham was in direct communication with HaShem until he made a serious error.

HaShem told Abraham to take his son to a place he shall disclose to him, as an offering to HaShem. HaShem had to send an angel to stop him.

What was Abraham's error? He did not question HaShem, nor did he ask for justice. After that point of time, HaShem communicated with Abraham only through an angel.

On the other hand, Moses did past this test, as did Job. If you see a need for it, you are required to question, even argue with G-d if Justice can or should be served. Then, we can bring the Light into His world.

Shalom;

Yechiel

Do you mean to say that you are still preaching -- on your own personal unsupportable and discredited "authority," that exists to your dull cult, boring existence, bitterness, intense dogmatic indoctrination, and panicky self, that only  fools believe in? ::Pardon yet another rude snicker:: You can't be serious about that. You really are simpleminded and timid, aren't you? Most losers are. ::Pardon yet another very rude snicker::

I don't feel able to call myself a master, though many others do so. It's not my place to call myself anything, but perhaps teacher, or sensei, which fits me well. If people ask, I answer as well as I can. Though, I have learned that, no matter how clearly you may answer, if the seeker isn't ready to hear the answer, they won't understand it and will be dissatisfied. And when a student is ready, a teacher will come along. It's so hard to teach people that they already know the answers to their questions if they only search inside themselves.

Bones posts:  Though, I have learned that, no matter how clearly you may answer, if the seeker isn't ready to hear the answer, they won't understand it and will be dissatisfied.

FR:  Agreed... One of three things typically  happens... A) They understand what you are saying... and smile. 

 B) They do not understand what you are saying... but begin to become curious.

  C) They do not understand what you are saying... BUT... THINK they do... and reject it.

For most... it's  C)    :P

Yechiel says: ... even argue with G-d if Justice can or should be served.

FR: The obvious problem here is... How does the human finite, and subjective mind decide what IS or is NOT just? For myself.... it has only been when "God" has lifted me UP to "His" Infinite Divine Perspective that Absolute Justice has been graspable.

Anyway... just because our 'false' ego does not like something.. does not mean it is not Perfect for us.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We can A)... Believe, via our finite, subjective mind, that we understand what "God" is saying... sans proof.

We can B).. know we understand what "God" is saying... with proof... BUT still via our own subjective finite mind.

Or C) ...We can KNOW we understand what "God" is saying ... by receiving Transcendent Knowledge (which bypasses the subjective mind), by merging directly into "God's" own Infinite Awareness.

If.. it's realllllly important.. such as tossing your kid into a volcano... I would most definitely hold out for C) :0

Oh hi njoy, you told me you wasn't going to post Faith any more.

Judy,I didn't tell you anything!

Typical dumb response from njoy posting under Anonymous calling me Judy (whoever Judy is) proving she is faith.

"The obvious problem here is... How does the human finite, and subjective mind decide what IS or is NOT just?"

If we say that just, is the same as right, once you reach a certain point in spiritual and mental advancement, you just...KNOW. Without ego and selfishness. It's a pure knowledge. What makes it hard for the vast majority of people is that, in any given situation, among the various options, the thing that is right seems to always be the hardest thing to do for we weak and fragile humans. Most people fight it, that knowledge inside us, the faith, the voice of the creator we all hear. We fight. But we also learn, and we learn that the right thing to do is always the best thing. I learned not to fight the will of the Creator, for me, the Goddess. For me, I live by, among other principles, the complex meaning of three words that most people never fully understand, and which, realistically, one only understand at the end of a life spent searching. I give these principl;es to you, openly and honestly. If you understand them, they are all you need to know to be right with both the Spirit in the sky as well as the world and the people in it. They're very simple, yet so very hard to fully understand. They are...Love, Devotion and Surrender. I ask you to think deeply on these things. It doesn't matter what Faith you may follow. These three principles are true for ALL faiths and all life. And so very rare. Love, Devotion and Surrender.