Discuss MikeC's answer to: Best Religion

Which religion should I convert to?

NJOY You said, "Jesus Christ did not create anyone. God The Father created ALL. God the Father IS ALL. Christ Jesus was His son/child. Jesus created stories and fables and parables to describe a larger truth, which you evidently have not yet quite understood."

In the beginning was the word, (no physical presents as we understand it. A word does not have a physical presents when spoken. ) The physical presents of anything came because of the word and before the word was a thought. The thought of G_d .was to make himself known to us in the physical form threw Christ Jesus. It was from the beginning, a thought of G_d.. To make himself known to mankind. The thought proses of God never changed from the beginning when the thoughts of God entered into the physical being of Christ Jesus. God himself took on the physical presents through Christ Jesus and at the same time never became a separated thought of the one universal God, All powerful and omnipresent. The physical form of Christ Jesus was on the cross and God felt his pain, not because he had to, but because he wanted to. The pain of Christ became God’s intimate relationship with mankind. God did not only create pain, emotions, love, hate, indifference, God experienced it first hand through the body he chose for himself in the name of Jesus the Christ, the promised messiah ! God himself became our teacher and humbled himself to indore the agony of our foolishness. God presented himself to us without us being in fear of him, but to let us choose Him freely with the understanding that there is no more of an important a task than to love him as well as every other human being on the face of the earth.     GBY  MikeC

Nothing is as it seem's.
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Yechielshlipshon Thinks this answer is Helpful:

Dear Mike;

Questioin, and do not get me wrong, i am for a long time puzzled by this verse. "All that you have been told, you shall see revealed to you in your life time."

I do not have the verse before me, but this is the way it came acrossed. I have not found any commentary yet, so if you can help, thank you.

Shalom;

Yechiel

 
MikeC

 

Yechiel    If I remember correctly, Jesus was talking to the apostles before he was put to the cross. The promised Messiah was revealed to them in there lifetime. (That is my belief) The apostles just did not know it yet. Only after the resurrection of Christ did they(the apostles) truly understand. The apostles all had inklings of who he was, (the Messiah) they thought he could be, they wanted him to be. Jesus did so many wonderful miracles in there sight yet there was doubt. Like you said, there where others that said they where the Messiah. It was not until after the resurrection of Christ, the event where Christ asked Thomas to put his finger into his wound. That was the main event that confirmed without a doubt that Christ Jesus was the true Messiah. After that event, death meant very little to the apostles. The apostles finally and truly understood as was written in John 15:18 I will not leave you orphaned; I will come back to you. A little while now and the world will see me no more; but you see me as one who has life, and you will have life. On that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. This is the line where I feel NJOY comes into play. In my opinion she is part right, I feel she is just a little out of step but is heading in the right direction. And the story continues ! That is my take on it. GBY MikeC

 
n

Symeon the New Theologian (949-1022) wrote the following hymn which illustrates  how Scripture becomes Spirituality:

We awaken in Christ's body,

As Christ awakens our bodies

There I look down and my poor hand is Christ,

He enters my foot and is infinitely me.

I move my hand and wonderfully

My hand becomes Christ,

Becomes all of Him,

I move my foot and at once

He appears in a flash of lightning,

Do my words seem blasphemous to you?

Then open your heart to him.

And let yourself receive the one

Who is opening to you so deeply.

For if we genuinely love Him,

We wake up inside Christ's body

When all our body all over,

Every most hidden part of it,

Is realized in joy as Him,

And He makes us utterly real.

And everything that is hurt, everything

That seemed to us dark, harsh, shameful,

maimed, ugly, irreparably damaged

Is in Him transformed.

And in Him, recognized as whole, as lovely,

And radiant in His light,

We awaken as the beloved

In every last part of our body.

Hymn 15 in Symeon's Hymns of Divine Love, tells of the divine union that all the Bible is inviting and edging us toward.

 
Anonymous Comment

For Mike and those who have eyes to see. In Genesis, Satan immediately started trying to separate mankind from God and to thwart mankind from achieving its eternal destiny as a member of the God Family.

 

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. KJV

 

Satan is jealous of the mankind's holy destiny. He deceived Eve into believing that the Tree of Good and Evil had the same properties as the Tree of Life,(Jesus Christ)  which represents the destiny of eternal life. The Tree of Good and Evil represents sin which is transgressing the law of God. Sin results in death.

 

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. KJV

 

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death… KJV

 

Satan entices Eve with her eternal potential, yet seduces her to try and achieve it by disobeying God. By deceiving Adam and Eve to sin, Satan made it impossible for mankind to achieve eternal life.If Adam and Eve had resisted Satan and obeyed God, then Adam and Eve would have been under the Government of God. By yielding to the lies of the serpent, they started the process of the whole world being under Satan's sway. However, God knew in advance that Adam and Eve would fail their test. But since Christ succeeded where Adam and Eve failed. Through Jesus Christ mankind can still achieve its true destiny.

 

Satan is the current god of this world. Satan is a spirit conspirator manipulating the world by deception and by fostering the spirit of disobedience. While on this Earth, Christ admitted that someone other than himself was the current ruler of the world.

 

John 18:36 Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

 

Paul identified who was the god of this world and warned his followers that it was Satan who blinded the world to the glorious gospel of Christ.

 

2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

 

Satan is deceiving the entire world and is fooling the world to worship a false Christ. The book of Revelation identifies Satan as the great deceiver of the entire world.

 

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the Earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 

Paul preached to the Ephesians that mankind's true battle is against Satan and his demons.

 

Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

 

Peter stated that a Christian's enemy is the devil.

 

1 Peter 5:8 Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. 9 Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings.

 

1 John 5:19 … the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

 

Christ had to come to the Earth and live out his life as a flesh and blood human being so mankind can be free from the control of the evil one. Christ is called the second Adam. The first Adam failed in resisting Satan. One of Christ's objectives while on this Earth was to successfully resist the temptation of Satan. By successfully resisting Satan and obeying God, Christ qualified to become the ruler of the world at his Second Coming.

 

Matthew 4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2 And when He had fasted forty days and forty nights, afterward He was hungry. 3 Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, "If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread." 4 But He answered and said, "It is written, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God."' 5 Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, 6 and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written: "He shall give His angels charge over you,' and, "In their hands they shall bear you up, Lest you dash your foot against a stone."' 7 Jesus said to him, "It is written again, "You shall not tempt the LORD your God."' 8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to Him, "All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me." 10 Then Jesus said to him, "Away with you, Satan! For it is written, "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve."' 11 Then the devil left Him, and behold, angels came and ministered to Him.

 

Christ did not disagree with Satan concerning his ability to give Christ all of the Kingdoms of the World. He knew Satan was the ruler of this world and could turn them over to him if he so wished. Christ also knew that by obeying God instead of Satan, he would qualify to dethrone Satan at his return in power and glory. Overcoming Satan's temptations were necessary so mankind could achieve its true destiny.


1Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; 2But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

 

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

 

4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


 5For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

 

6For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

 
n

 

 The apostles finally and truly understood as was written in John 15:18

I will not leave you orphaned; I will come back to you. A little while now and the world will see me no more; but you see me as one who has life, and you will have life.

 On that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. This is the line where I feel NJOY comes into play.

 

 
Anonymous Comment

There is probably no greater heresy within Christianity than Gnosticism. It is its first heresy, and, ironically, it promulgated reactionary doctrines that, if not as heretical and false, they were just as inaccurate. They were the byproduct of inaccurately rebutting the rationalizations of passing Greek culture. Rationalism was Gnosticism’s mistake, and this supplication to universal wisdom called Logos was rightly condemned by the Church as “knowledge falsely so called.” This “knowledge” was nothing more than self-invented allegory and metaphor aimed at creating an esoteric, “spiritual” reality of deeper truths. Since it came largely from the Greeks, it was tainted with contemporaneous Greek pagan and philosophical outlooks. Since Gnosticism is a methodology of allegory and rationalization it cannot die out. “Esoteric Gnosis” (Gnosis = Knowledge, from which Gnosticism gets its name) will always be the byproduct of a culture’s outlooks since it originates from the human mind rationalizing or adapting concepts in Scripture or in interpreting events and the “signs of a time.” The resultant philosophy is declared God’s own declared word and truth.



     Gnosticism was first born amongst Greek Christianity in order to reconcile the Pharisaical image of God and the Christian image of the New Testament Father. It wasn’t just the lack of Scripture which promulgated this view -- many had the Scriptures-- it was the allegorizing and interpretation of things contained in Scripture, taken out of context.  Taking Scripture piecemeal revealed a judgmental God fighting sin and imperfect conditions. Gnostics, in general, therefore used their method to divide between the Creator God of the “Old Testament” and God the Father whom Jesus revealed. Greeks had many gods, and many times these gods took on different forms and manifestations to accentuate certain characteristics which were dominant in the god’s personality. The loving father of Jesus had been a little known god now revealing himself through Christ. They also had the Greek stoic view that the flesh was sinful and that Christ, being divine, therefore could not have taken on real flesh, but that he only gave the appearance of doing so. the result was Docetism -- that Christ appeared fully formed and had no nativity.



     This must be stressed at the onset: Gnosticism was really not a belief or set of tenets; it was a methodology. It is not surprising therefore that in the hands of individuals this methodology could extract a slough of varying ideas. While there were many variations in Gnostic rationalizing, Gnostics could generally be recognized by three main points of methodology: 1) embracing of allegory and metaphor as interpretative of Scripture; 2) supplication for wisdom to the universal force called Logos; 3) rejection of church organization and the elevating of peshers, whether oral or written, as completely equal (some even then rejected all written revelation).



   This methodology naturally culminated in a set of beliefs that though they varied they revolved around a central theme— Gnosticism’s first and foremost pursuit: esoteric gnosis: knowledge.  This belief in a salvation either proven or guaranteed by esoteric knowledge made those who allegorized the scriptures believe they had more knowledge and as a result a surer and higher level of salvation than others. This naturally led to a denigration of the church hierarchy which did not share the same elaborate and arbitrary allegorical approach to the interpretation of scripture. Thus Gnosticism followed a basic pattern: self-deceptive “knowledge” by allegorizing basic Scriptural passages; this led to a rejection of church organization because they were run by inferiors in knowledge; and eventually this led to an autonomous, purely metaphysical state of knowledge, with no practical application, based on rationalizing events and concepts.

 
Anonymous Comment

Mike, this is where NJOY gets her, "Jesus was different than Christ"

 

Gnosticism began in the late 1st century at Ephesus under a leader named Cerinthus; and in some form or another it continued until the ascendancy of the Catholic Church during the latter Roman Empire, which then squashed it. Only after the Reformation did Gnosticism revive, largely because of the break up of central Roman authority and the dissemination of the Bible into every lay hand.

 

The scriptures were still a central authority in Cerinthus’ time. Therefore his brand of Gnosticism extracted a strange Quartinity from the “Old Testament” and the writings that would be later compiled as the New Testament. He posited that the world was created by the supreme power Logos, and this was different than God, the “unknown Father.” Likewise Jesus was different than Christ. Christ’s spirit came to him at baptism and forsook him at the cross. Therefore there was the great supreme ruler or power Logos; there was God the unknown Father; there was Christ as a separate spirit; and there was Jesus in whom he dwelt and from whom he taught. Thus, there are 4 powers. This is clearly not borne out by scripture.

 
Alkaline

NJOY's Gnosticism knowledge is like that of jameslee, it originates from the human mind rationalizing. This “knowledge” was nothing more than self-invented allegory and metaphor aimed at creating an esoteric, “spiritual” reality of deeper truths.

 

Since it came largely from the Greeks, it was tainted with contemporaneous Greek pagan and philosophical outlooks. Since Gnosticism is a methodology of allegory and rationalization it cannot die out. “Esoteric Gnosis” (Gnosis = Knowledge, from which Gnosticism gets its name) will always be the byproduct of a culture’s outlooks since it originates from the human mind rationalizing or adapting concepts in Scripture or in interpreting events and the “signs of a time.” The resultant philosophy is falsely declared God’s own word and truth.

 
MikeC

Maybe the question to a gnostic would be if they believe in angels of any kind, good or bad. Separate entities from God. Follow up would be, if angels are spirits without matter, why is that any different than when we die and become a spirit, why would we be one in spirit with God and angles a separate spirit in relationship to God ? If we become part of God in spirit, then if we are part of God, there is no self Identity of our own or of God. I don't feel God went to all this trouble to create free will, choice and expressing himself to us so we could be a part of himself in spirit. That, to me would serve no purpose. I also don't believe God to be an ego maniac, where all he wants from us is to praise him all the time for his own glory. Maybe I am a fool, but I believe it is more in line with a loving father/mother that gives all there love to there children and that all he has, is ours to share. When we become aware of who and what he is, there is no need for fear, greed, envy, hatred, doubt, no misunderstanding or quarreling. To me, heaven would be more like a united, loving family with complete respect for the father that is sharing everything he has with us. To me he is not looking for us to glorify him, he is looking for us to love him. (We give him glory because we want to.) He is the true father just as in the story of the prodical son. We are all like the prodical son and our father can't wait until we make up our minds and come home to him freely and not wanting anything in return. The reaction will be much the same as the Father in th prodical son. We learned through our mistakes and all he has is our’s ! He still remains the Father and we still remain his children. Separate but of one family.    GBY MikeC

    

 
Anonymous Comment

Gnosticism is a philosophical and religious movement which started in pre-Christian times.Gnostics believe that they have secret knowledge about God, humanity and the rest of the universe of which the general population is unaware.

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