Discuss Yechielshlipshon's answer to: Best Religion

Which religion should I convert to?

Dear Friends;

There is a lot of confusion on these posting about Jewish beliefs of what G-d has said, regarding salvation. I shall post a series of articles over the nest few weeks, for those who read our postings and may wish for a clearer idea, and less bias one, on what we do believe.

Please read the Biblical verses stated in these articles, before you make any judgement. Therefore, you shall be using knowledge, not supositioin, as you read these articles and thus, become more competant to understand both, your faith and the faith of the Jew.

Essay #9: "Jews" for Jesus, Messianic "Jews", and "Hebrew" Christians are no longer Jews, even if they were once Jews.

 IN SHORT... Many people -- some but not all Christians, and some Jews as well -- erroneously believe that just as one can be Black and Christian, just as one can be Oriental and Christian, one can also be Jewish and Christian. This is not true. The Jews are not a race. There is no genetic code passed from either mother or father to the child that makes that child a Jew. Genetics might indicate that ones ancestors were Jews, but that does not, in fact, make one a Jew. Even if all, or some, of the genetic code in a child proved to be of Jewish origin, that would not make the child a Jew. Jewish law determines who is a Jew, and Jewish law is quite clear. If a person's mother is a Jew, and that person has not converted to another faith and wishes to identify solely as a Jew, then that person is considered fully Jewish. In addition, a convert to Judaism is fully Jewish. Although one cannot convert to become a member of a race (for example one cannot convert to become an Asian or an African-American), one can convert to become a Jew. If someone who is Asian or African-American converts to Judaism, that person obviously remains an Asian or an African-American, and at the same time is a Jew. However, if one converts from Judaism to another faith, one is no longer a Jew. 

 

 A MORE COMPLETE EXPLANATION... 

When the non-Jewish world makes the claim that one who was Jewish but converts to Christianity can retain the 'Jewish Culture and Ethnicity,' one must ask, 'Which Jewish Culture? Which Jewish Ethnicity?' The culture and ethnicity of a Jew from Morocco has little in common with the culture and ethnicity of a Jew from Eastern Europe. Yet both are Jews because their faith, their Jewish theology, their Jewish belief system, their Judaism, is Jewish. 

Just as many people convert to Judaism, and thus become Jews, those Jews who convert to another faith are no longer Jews. Remember, the Jews determine who is a Jew -- not ex-Jews who have become Christians, and not Christians themselves. The Jews determine for themselves who is a Jew. 

The biblical basis for this is I Kings 18:21. Elijah the prophet asked Jews who were beginning to slip into the worship of the idol, Baal, 

How long will you go limping with two different opinions? If the Gd of the Jews is Gd, follow Him! but if Baal is god, then follow him! [I Kings 18:21] 

Elijah told the Jews, one or the other, not both! You cannot believe in two opposite, mutually exclusive ideas simultaneously. Judaism and Christianity believe in opposite, mutually exclusive ideas, and you cannot be a Jew and a believer that Jesus was the Christ at the same time. (Please see Essay #3, 'Jews Believe that Jesus was not the Messiah') 

A rabbi in the later Middle Ages named the Hai Gaon, as quoted by Aderet in Responsa, VII #292, stated that a Jew who converted out of the faith was no longer a Jew. This view was shared by numerous rabbis, which can be seen in the Responsa literature of Simon ben Zemah of Duran, Samuel de Medina, Judah Berab, Jacob Berab, Moses ben Elias Kapsali and others in the Middle Ages. 

It can also be seen more recently in the Responsa of the Satmar Rov in his Divrei Torah, Yoreh Deah #59, paragraph 5, as well as in the Responsa of Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, Even Haezer Volume 4 Number 53. 

The very famous rabbi, Moses ben Maimon, called Maimonides (the Rambam), also wrote that if a Jew converted to Christianity, he or she was no longer a Jew. See Maimonides, Hilchot Mamrim Perek 3, Halacha 1-3, as well as in Maimonides' Mishneh Torah, Avodat Kochavim 2:5. 

Rabbi Moses Isserles demanded a formal conversion back to Judaism for those who had converted out, but then wanted to return. He demanded ritual immersion (mikveh) and repentance before a court of three (Beit Din). You will see this also in other Responsa literature: Radbaz, Responsa III, 415; Moses Isserles to Yoreh Deah 268.12; and Hoffman, Melamed Leho-il II, 84. 

After the experience of the Anusim (sometimes called Marranos, a derogatory term), who were Jews forced by the Church to convert to Catholicism, the Rabbis stated that one who converted involuntarily out of Judaism did not have to reconvert in the opposite direction, and could be welcomed back into the community as a Jew. Many Anusim even risked their lives by continuing to practice Judaism in secret. It was assumed that because the decision to convert was forced upon them, these Jews in their hearts never really left the Jewish religion. This concerns only those who wish to return to Judaism and turn their backs on Christianity. It says nothing about those who accept the theology of Christianity as their own - these people remain Christian unless they have a change of heart and return to Judaism, abandoning their Christian beliefs and practices. It is necessary to pick one or the other; it's either Christianity or it's Judaism, but it cannot be both. 

In the modern world, no one is given the three choices: leave the country, be put to death, or convert to Christianity, which were frequently the only options available to the Jews of Europe in the Middle Ages. Nonetheless, most rabbis today allow modern Christian converts, previously Jewish, back into the fold without requiring a formal ceremony of return. This is a modern extension of the leniency which had as its purpose easing the reintegration of the Anusim into Jewish society. 

Modern Israel has a law called the Law of Return. This means that because Israel is the Jewish homeland, one who is Jewish can come to Israel, and immediately become an Israeli citizen, as one coming home. 

Daniel Rufeisen was born Jewish, of two Jewish parents. Because of the Nazi persecutions, his parents hid him with a couple who were Catholic. The couple raised him as a Catholic, and he became a Catholic priest. Brother Daniel, aware of his parents' heritage, came to Israel and applied to become a citizen of Israel under the Law of Return. The Israeli Supreme Court denied his application, stating that since he converted, he was no longer a Jew. He had to wait the customary time for any other non-Jew to become a naturalized Israeli citizen, just as in the U.S., one has to wait six years in order to become a naturalized U.S. citizen. 

It is important to note that the family who hid Daniel Rufeisen did not follow the wishes of Daniel's parents. They had wanted to save their child as a Jew, but as a Jew he was lost. 

More recently, Israel made the same decision concerning a so-called Messianic 'Jewish' couple. The Beresfords from South Africa tried to become citizens of Israel under the Law of Return. They were denied on the same basis as Father Daniel. Remember that all of the parents involved -- the parents of Daniel Rufeisen, and the parents of both of the Beresfords -- were Jews. 

Furthermore, this is the attitude of many Orthodox rabbis today. In his book 'The Real Messiah,' Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan, writing for the Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America and the Orthodox youth group 'National Conference of Synagogue Youth,' wrote (on page 11): 

This brings us back to our original question: What can a Jew lose by embracing Christianity?

The answer is: Everything. 

Christianity negates the fundamentals of Jewish faith, and one who accepts it rejects the very essence of Judaism. Even if he continues to keep all of the rituals, it is the same as if he abandoned Judaism completely. 

A Jew who accepts Christianity might want to call himself a 'Jewish Christian,' but he is no longer a Jew. He can no longer even be counted as part of a Jewish congregation.

The only connection he can claim to Judaism is that of having been born a Jew, but by accepting Jesus as his messiah, he has forfeited his birthright. 

You can most certainly have a Hebrew-speaking Christian, just as you can have an Israeli Christian or a Christian Israeli. But 'Hebrew Christian,' or 'Jewish Christian,' or 'Messianic Jew,' or 'Christian Jew,' or 'Jew for Jesus,' etc. is an oxymoron -- a contradiction in terms: once you're out, you're out, even if it only seems to be partially. This is a fundamental tenet of all the movements of Judaism. However, as was stated above, few rabbis today ask the ex-Jew who wishes to rejoin the Jewish people to go through a formal ceremony of conversion. This might be a 'stumbling block before the blind,' (cf. Lev. 19:14) placed in the way of those who wish to come back. As long as one remains a Christian, one is no longer a Jew. But if one wishes to return, the road is made easy as an act of compassion. However, a return must be made, because the person left both Judaism and the Jewish people by converting to another faith. 

Conversely, as long as one believes that Jesus was anything more than a human being who lived and died around 2000 years ago, that person cannot convert TO Judaism, and become a Jew. In order to convert, one has to pass examination by a court of three, a 'Beit Din,' and no Beit Din will approve a conversion candidate who is unable to give up belief in Jesus as the messiah. There are some Christians who believe that, since their brand of Christianity does not believe that Jesus was Gd or a part of a trinity, their theology is acceptable to Jews and to Judaism. This is not the case. The reason is that these people still hold to the Christian definition of the term, 'messiah,' that Jesus died for the sins of humanity, which is unbiblical. (Please see Essay #1, 'One person cannot die for the sins of another.') 

The two faiths of Judaism and Christianity are simply mutually exclusive and incompatible. 

Messianic 'Jews' are not Jews. Were you to compare the theology of the Messianic 'Jews' (as well as the theology of the organization that calls itself the 'Jews' for Jesus) with the theology of the Southern Baptist Convention, you would see no difference. Compare the statements of faith of the Messianic 'Jewish' Alliance of America (whose original name was the Hebrew Christian Alliance of America) with the statement of faith from the Southern Baptist Convention. Both the MJAA and the SBC have web sites; you can see this for yourself. 

Christian missionaries claim that this deceptive technique, teaching that one can be a Jew and a Christian at the same time, originates with Paul, in I Corinthians 9:20, where he says that it is okay to pretend to be anything, so long as it gets converts to Christianity: 

And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to Gd, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. [I Corinthians 9:20-22] 

One can also see this in Phillipians 1:18, where Paul distinguishes between pretense and truth, but states that both are acceptable practices if it helps Christians obtain converts: 

What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice. [Philippians 1:18] 

Furthermore, it is expanded in the idea of Indigenous Cultural Evangelism. This is the name given to the missionary technique 'as long as you make the targets think that they can be both a Christian and whatever they were before their conversion, then missionizing will be easier.' See 'Understanding Church Growth' by Donald A. McGavran, the chapter on The Sociological Foundation. 

Messianic 'Jews' are merely dressing up their Christian theology in Jewish clothing. 

This leads to other questions: 

Q: Are the majority of Jews who are secular, many not believing in Gd at all, really Jews? 

A: Yes, just as a U.S. citizen is still a citizen even if that person never votes, never celebrates July Fourth, never has turkey on Thanksgiving. But if they become a citizen of another country, especially another country who is hostile to America, they lose their U.S. citizenship. Similarly, if one converts out of Judaism one is no longer a Jew. 

A Jew is a member of a nation that has been defined by the religion of Judaism. Let me explain: 

First, understand that I am not talking about a nation meaning a country (like the State of Israel), which is defined by borders and passports. Rather, I am talking about a nation in the same sense we understand it in relationship to the Native American Indians. We used to use the term 'tribe,' but the term 'nation' is more accurate. For the Jews, the analogy to a nation is a perfect one, because that, indeed, is what Gd told Abra(ha)m Gd would make Abra(ha)m into, in Genesis 12:2, 

And I will make of you a great nation... [Genesis 12:2] 

Note that the verse above does not call us an ethnic group, or a culture. It calls us a nation. We are a nation: a nation defined by our religion, because it was Gd and our religion that defined us in this way in our Bible. 

For a person to become a citizen of a nation the process is called Naturalization. To become a citizen of the Jewish nation, the naturalization process is called Conversion to Judaism. On the other hand, just because a 'citizen' of this Jewish nation is totally non-practicing (of the Jewish religion) does not mean that he or she is no longer a citizen (no longer a Jew) -- unless that person converts to a religion other than Judaism. This can be explained by taking a look at four analogies: 

Andy is born in the U.S. of two U.S. citizens, but Andy moves to Australia. There he remains involved in every U.S. election, he knows every issue for his home city, his home county, his home state, and even on the federal level. He writes his congressional leaders, he has turkey on the fourth Thursday in November, and celebrates July Fourth with fireworks. Even though he lives in Australia, does Andy remain a U.S. citizen? Yes, he remains a U.S. citizen because he has done nothing to give up his citizenship. 

Similarly, there are those Jews who actively pursue being Jewish: Jews who affiliate, celebrate the holidays and holy days, life cycle events, etc. Many of them live permanently outside of Israel. 

Bert is born in the U.S. of two U.S. citizens, but Bert moves to Belgium. There Bert cannot care less about anything of, or from, the U.S.. So long as Bert has a job and his food and his TV, Bert is quite content. Bert cannot remember who is president, is unconcerned regarding any of the political or social issues of his native country, does not even realize that the fourth Thursday in November means anything, nor does Bert think that July fourth is significant. Even though Bert lives in Belgium and does nothing to actively be a U.S. citizen, to express the values of democracy, etc., does Bert remain a U.S. citizen? Yes, he remains a U.S. citizen because he has done nothing to lose his U.S. citizenship. 

Similarly, there are those Jews who do nothing Jewishly, who do not affiliate, but who nevertheless remain Jews, until such time as they convert to another religion. 

Charlie is born in the U.S. of two U.S. citizens, but Charlie moves to China. There, Charlie does everything Charlie can do to overthrow the U.S. government. Charlie puts on sackcloth and ashes every July fourth, and ignores Thanksgiving. Charlie attempts to smuggle arms into the U.S. to overthrow it, and works to fight against the freedoms and liberty for which the United States stands. Even though Charlie lives in China and works to destroy the U.S., does Charlie remain a U.S. Citizen? Yes, because working to overthrow the U.S. does not constitute grounds to lose ones citizenship. Those who oppose the U.S. in this way merely go to jail. 

Similarly, there are those Jews whose actions could be, and are, detrimental and destructive to Judaism and to the Jewish People. However, they nevertheless remain Jews until such time as they convert to another religion. 

The ONLY time that Andy, Bert, or Charlie would ever lose their U.S. citizenship is if and when they accept the citizenship of another country, an act that usually voids their U.S. citizenship. Of course, both the U.S. and the State of Israel recognize dual citizenship in some instances with certain countries, but Judaism and the Jewish 'nation' do not recognize dual citizenship (dual religious loyalties) at all. The act of accepting another faith removes that person from citizenship in the Jewish nation. In other words, a Jew who has accepted the theology of another faith is no longer a Jew. (See Aryeh Kaplan, 'The Real Messiah,' p.21, referencing Maimonides' Mishneh Torah, Avodat Kochavim 2:5, as quoted above. See also the Responsa of other rabbis quoted above.) 

Now, we come to Danny. Danny is born in the U.S. of a father who is a U.S. citizen, but Danny's mother is Dutch. At the age of 17 Danny must choose between Dutch and U.S. citizenship. But Danny cannot choose, say, Brazilian citizenship because he was not born there, and has no connection to Brazil through his mother or father. So, according to international law and U.S. law, we can obtain the rights of citizenship in a country through either the mother or the father. 

By Jewish Law, citizenship rights in the Jewish nation only come through the mother, while inheritance rights, which are related to lineage, come through the father. An example of the latter might be for inheriting property or for being a member of a specific tribe, like that of Benjamin, or Levi, which come through the father. Now, in the past few decades, only the Reform movement of Judaism has accepted the idea that citizenship rights in the Jewish nation may also come through the father. However, this is true for them only if the child was raised with specific and exclusively Jewish ceremonies and affiliations (a fact usually not stated when referring to the Reform movement's position, but nevertheless true). 

Jews, even those who might not follow Judaism, are members of a nation defined by Judaism, as long as they have not joined any Wholly Other faith. This is no different than citizens of the United States who do not exercise their right to vote. They may not do what one is supposed to do as a citizen, but they remain citizens. However, if they become citizens of China, for example, they lose their U.S. citizenship. 

One important note: as a Jew, one has been chosen by Gd to act as Gd's advertising agent in the world. Gd needs Jews to be a constant reminder to the rest of the world that Gd exists, and that Gd demands moral and ethical behavior from Gd's creation. Jews have a mission in the world. That mission, as defined by our covenant with Gd, is to be a light unto the nations by our actions, and by our willingness to have others join us in our mission by becoming Jews themselves, through the conversion process established by our tradition. Those actions that make us a light unto the nations are not merely ethical behavior on our part; they also serve to make us different, through the observance of the commandments (mitzvot). 

So, being Jewish does not mean belonging to a race or a culture, but a religion, and if one joins a Completely Other faith, as messianic 'Jews' have done by accepting Jesus as their personal savior and messiah, they are no longer Jews. To deny an element of a faith is not the same thing as joining another faith, getting baptized into it, worshipping its gods, etc. The messianic 'Jews' want to see themselves as still Jewish even though they now believe exactly the same as the members of the Southern Baptist, Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, and Assemblies of Gd churches. It is these churches and denominations that fund and establish and maintain messianic 'synagogues.' 

This leads to two related issues. 

First, if these Christian groups are still Jewish, how come the people who fund them are not their 'fellow Jews?' They do not receive their monies from any recognized national Jewish religious organization such as the United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, or the Union of American Hebrew Congregations. The messianics do not receive their monies from donations from individual synagogues or temples. When these messianic 'synagogues' form, they usually start meeting in churches. They do not begin meeting there because the 'liberal' Christian church is being nice, which happens often for real Jewish congregations. Rather, the church where they start meeting is sponsoring the messianic 'synagogue' as a technique to convert Jews to Christianity. The messianics also do not receive any monies from any national Jewish secular organizations, such as the Federations, the Anti-Defamation League, or the American Jewish Committee. As a matter of fact, these organizations have committees and sub-committees to fight the Christian missionaries that call themselves as messianic 'Jews.' 

Second, what do these same messianic 'Jews' say about their supposed 'fellow Jews?' They will say that the real Jews are going to 'Hell' because they do not accept Jesus. This means that the messianic 'Jews' condemn the very group of which they still claim to be a part. 

To the Jewish community, it is absurd to claim one can be a Jew and a Christian at the same time, and knowledgeable Jews are not fooled. 

Shalom;

Yechiel

 

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Physicalist Thinks this answer is Helpful:

Some hide the realities of truth by failure to write succinctly. There is beauty in simple truth rather than obfuscation with a garbage pail of ink. Who would want to associate themselves with the absurd out of date creation stories of Christians and Jews that are in the Old Testament. I would be too embarrassed to say I am either a Jew or a Christian. Reality rules. E=MC2 is simple truth that has more meaning than any long winded claim about the Bible.

 
Yechielshlipshon

Dear Phys;

You reject the fundation, what do you have to stand on.

Shalom;

Yechiel

 
Yechielshlipshon

Dear Phys;

One other item; Eistein brought up the E=MC2. Read up on what he had to say about G-d.

Shalom;

Yechiel

 
Yechielshlipshon

Dear Phys;

Also, Max Planck had an interesting observation; >>>German physicist and one of the founding fathers of Quantum Theory, Max Planck, said that “all matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particles of an atom to vibration which holds the atom together. We must assume behind this force is the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter.“

("Intelligent Mind"?) What would you call this, Phys?

In other words, the substance of the universe, of your reality, may be nothing more than consciousness or thought. Consciousness forms the building blocks of the universe and everywhere that consciousness explores, with the expectation that something will be there, it also creates. If Quantum Theory is correct, it implies that to change your current reality, all you need to do is change the frequency of your thoughts.

There’s a hidden force that defines reality.

 
Max Planck and Albert Einstein

Do you know the true power of your thoughts? The truth is stunning.<<<

Shalom;

Yechiel

 
Anonymous Comment

Yechiel does blogging keep your mind off of your other hobby? Lets hope so Julius.

 
Anonymous Commenter Thinks this answer is Helpful:

Does stalking and lying about other people on AOL keep your mind off your other hobby, Anonymous.   Oh dear, you don't have any other hobbies, or much of a mind either, do you?

 
Anonymous Comment

Rocmike under its many aliases never uses facts. It makes things up and tries to pass them off as facts. It believes everyone is as stupid as it is and will believe them.

 
Toadski's Hot Pic Thinks this answer is Helpful:

Toadski under its many aliases posts only hateful bullshit.  

 
Anonymous Comment

AP they are all your aliases idiot.

 
Toadski's Hot Pic Thinks this answer is Helpful:

Toadski under its Anonymous guise posts only hateful, erroneous bullshit.

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