Discuss JVH's answer to: The Logic of the Resurrection

Flesh death, the death of the flesh.

The verses do not imply that Jesus could not die, but that he could not be held down forever by it.  Death is thought of as permanent.  Someone that is raised from the dead are certainly not overcome by death.  The wound Jesus received was temporary. (Gen 3:15)

The Bible does say that God cannot die.  So that point is one of seemingly endless points that show Jesus and God are two seperate individuals.

The common argument that Jesus died partially (fleshly,but not spiritually) is complete nonsense and has scriptual backing.  If he did not actually die, the ransom was not paid, and Christains would have no basis for salvation.  Christendom saying Jesus didn't really die, rejects a foundation teaching of the Bible.

I think you misunderstood my answer. I explained the context.  The writer knew Jesus was going to die and be resurrected.  He was not stating anything that contradicts that belief.  My explanation puts the verse in context.

When God came to earth in the flesh (as Jesus Christ), He came "a little lower that the Angels" (Heb 2:9) because He was now in a flesh body that was liable to die (mortal, flesh).  But God being omnipresent (present everywhere) He was still in Heaven and upon the earth at once.  The reason that Jesus was referred to as "a little lower than the angels," is because that angels are in spiritual bodies, not flesh bodies, and are not subject to death (unless/until God blots some of them out in the Lake of Fire - Rev 20:13-15).  

        Jesus was subjected to death (made liable to die), and He did die, but after His death, by the grace of God towards all whom believe, Jesus then overcame death (1st Cor 15:26) by raising on the third day so that we all whom believe may also raise from the dead (John 3:16).  Jesus was not holden to death (not held by):  "Whom [Jesus Christ] God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it [death]." (Acts 2:24), but rather, He overcame death:  "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;" (Heb 2:14).  And it is this same Jesus Christ who is the Eternal One: "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys [the power, the control] of hell and of death." (Rev 1:18).

    Heb 2:9
    9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (KJV)

       The only way for any of us to attain the promise and to live eternal with The One True God is through the sacrifice of His Son when He (Emmanuel - "God with us") came in the flesh to mankind to be crucified ("For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" - Rom 3:23).  Therefore, to deny Jesus Christ is to deny The Lord God.  This where the 'Jews' (Pharisees - Judaism) were snared in their own disbelief, for though they had the Scriptures and the written prophesies, but they had not faith to recognize them when they were being fulfilled right before their eyes;  and for their unbelief, Jesus Christ became to them the "Stone of stumbling" (1st Pet 2:8) and the "Rock of offence" (Isaiah 8:14), for it was Jesus Christ, whom they killed, that was He whom was prophesied to come and whom did come and fulfill the prophesies:

    Ps 118:22-23
    22 The stone [the Messiah - Jesus Christ] which the builders refused [rejected] is become the head stone of the corner.
    23 This is the LORD's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.  (KJV)

    Mark 12:10-11 (Jesus speaking of Himself)
    10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone [Jesus Christ - the Messiah] which the builders rejected [crucified - the ultimate rejection] is become the head of the corner [the head of the Church, the Captain of salvation - Heb 2:10]:
    11 This was the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?  (KJV)

The only way for any of us to attain eternal life is through Jesus Christ, for to deny Jesus Christ IS to deny the Lord God:

    I Jn 2:22-25
    22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that [whom then does] denieth the Father and the Son. [in other words, if you deny the one then you deny them both, for they are both of the same]
    23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
    24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
    25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. (KJV)

    John 3:35-36
    35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
    36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (KJV)

For Jesus Christ and the Lord God are One:

In the below Scripture we see that God's hand and Jesus' hand are synonymous (the same):

    John 10:27-30 (Jesus speaking)
    27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
    30 I and my Father are one.  (KJV)


The below Scriptures remove any doubt that Jesus was (and is) in fact, God:

    John 1:1-3
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2 The same was in the beginning with God.
    3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.  (KJV)

        Gen 1:1
        1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.  (KJV)


    John 1:14
    14 And the Word  [Jesus Christ] was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.  (KJV)

        1 Tim 3:16
        16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest [Grk. #5319 phaneroo: to render apparent, appeared]  in the flesh [Jesus Christ], justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.  (KJV)

    John 8:58-59
    58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
    59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.  (KJV)

        What was it about Jesus saying "I Am" that so caused the Jews to want to kill Him?  "I AM" is the sacred name, Jesus was calling Himself God!  Observe God's sacred name that he Himself spoke to Moses:

        Exod 3:14
        14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.  (KJV)

            Jesus was/is God and He stated so.  While it is somewhat obscured in our English translations, the Jews knew full well that Jesus claimed to be God in the flesh (for Jesus spoke to everyone in their native tongue, therefore when Jesus told them in Hebrew that He was the "I AM," what He was saying was 'EHaYEH , or the title fully stated 'EhaYEH  aSHER  'EYaYEH which means: I AM THAT I AM, or I will be what I want to be –— I exist (by self), self existent, God Almighty, created by none, but simply became –— was –— is.  To this day, Jews will not pronounce 'EHaYEH , for they reason that for a Hebrew in the Hebrew tongue, to say the name 'EHaYEH, is itself calling oneself God.     

            It is kind of like if our name in English for God was something like "I Am God," then for us to pronounce His name would be to call oneself God (or so the Jews suppose, anyway).  But the Lord said "..this [I AM THAT I AM] is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations" (Ex 3:15), so why wouldn't they call Him that?  Jews today call God "Hashem" (meaning: "The Name"), and write His name as G-d.


    The point is that with this single utterance Jesus had at once claimed that He was God Almighty.  For this the Jews sought to kill Him because had it not been true (but it was) then it would have been blasphemy punishable by death for a man to make the claim.  So in that the Jews could have meant 'well.'  BUT, Jesus was God, so it was not blasphemy for Jesus to say it.  But the Jews did not believe that Jesus was the  Immanuel - God with us (Isa 7:14) that the prophets of old had foretold of.  But they should have, for he fulfilled over 300 Old Testament prophesies!   

            John 8:58-59
            58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

            John 5:18
            18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.  (KJV)

            John 10:32-33
            32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
            33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.  (KJV)

            Phil 2:5-6
            5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
            6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: (KJV)

And some more:

    Isa 7:14
    14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son [Jesus Christ], and shall call his name Immanuel.  (KJV) [In the Hebrew, Immanuel means "God with us"]

    Isa 9:6
    6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son [Jesus Christ] is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.  (KJV)

    Titus 2:13
    13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;   (KJV)  ["And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God" (John 20:28).]

Jesus, in His proclamation to Jerusalem, states as much that He is God:

    Matt 23:37-39
    37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I 1 have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
    38 Behold, your  2 house 3 is left unto you  2 desolate 4 .
    39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. 5  [Jesus quoting Psm 118:26] (KJV)

To sum it up in one verse:

    I Jn 5:7
    7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father [Lord God], the Word [Jesus Christ], and the Holy Ghost [Holy Spirit]: and these three are one.  (KJV)

        And don’t let anyone tell you that the above verse (1st John 5:7) does not belong in Scripture!

1 John 5:7 is a spurious text.  The other scriptures you are using a poor translation such as John 1:1, taking them out of context as in John 10, and reading into the others as in beliveing they are telling you more than what they are actually saying. 

Every honest and sincere trinitarian can see 1 Jn 5:7 is spurious.